Joseph Sawyer, the man formerly known as Joe Gacy in WWE, sat down with Chris Van Vliet in Orlando, Florida to discuss him and the rest of the Wyatt Sicks being released by WWE, the group’s incredible debut, winning the Tag Team Championships, memories of Bray Wyatt, his controversial NXT persona that became mainstream news, being part of “the most illegal move in wrestling” viral video, the Wyatt Sicks having their own attraction at Universal’s Halloween Horror Nights, what’s next for him in wrestling and more!

Did you have any idea that this might be coming? That you might get released?

“So I think there was a little inkling. I don’t know. As far as the group, I don’t know if anyone else in the group felt it, but I think I had a little inkling. We were in Las Vegas. It was WrestleMania week, and we were doing SmackDown. It was supposed to be the big blow-off match with MFTs, so they told us we were doing a street fight. So it was the week before we were supposed to do a promo to hype up the match, this and that, and we did it. We actually pitched a way to do it, and they really liked it, and we shot it, and it was actually the first chance, really, for each of us in the group to have a little part of the promo because they kind of kept us quiet a lot of the time and let Taylor do a lot of the talking. But we did one where we each had a little piece that we got to write ourselves and came off good. The writers said this was great, we need more of this, and then they cut it from the TV and they just aired it online. So I think we were all a little like that’s kind of weird. Then they told us, ‘Oh, it was a timing thing, ran out of time.’ I was like, okay. These are kind of things I’m looking back at now and kind of realizing I think the ball was already kind of rolling.”

“Then I guess the big thing. So in Vegas, we were actually originally planned to make an appearance at the Tony Hitchcliffe show he was doing. There was supposed to be a thing where we were, I guess, originally pitched to come out and like kidnap him. It ended up being, Undertaker gave him a choke slam through a table. So instead of that, it was supposed to be something with us. Then they told us, I think it was the day before, it’s not happening now. We’re like, okay, no problem. And then going into SmackDown, us being the babyfaces, they didn’t allow us to use a lot for the match. In my head, I was like yeah, there’s like stuff going on for the main event. I understand sometimes they have things planned for other people they don’t want us to touch. That’s totally fine. Then the big thing was, and I’m not one to complain about this type of thing, but they had MFTs going over on us, and as us being the babyfaces, and this being the blow-off, we’re all kind of a little confused about that decision. Even some other guys in the locker room were like, it’s really weird that they’re over on you guys. So you know, it was fine, but I think just the overall vibes, just interactions, small interactions I had backstage, and that whole weekend seemed a little off. So I don’t know. I had this sixth sense that something was coming, and I didn’t know what it was, and I just hoped we’ll get through this, and then post WrestleMania, we’ll hopefully move on to the next thing and get something good going. And that is not what happened.”

Can you pinpoint the moment when the Wyatt Six started losing momentum?

“I think, in my opinion, it’s because they didn’t really allow us to develop individually. So I think a lot of the focus was on Taylor, which obviously makes sense. He’s the leader. I do feel like that if they allowed us to develop a little bit more individually, like even our first VHS tapes that were put out early on after the debut. I know Rowan had a chance, his VHS vignette was a little longer than ours. But I filmed one where I cut a whole promo, and they just didn’t use it. They just had me humming and rocking back and forth. I just feel like if we had the chance to develop a little more, get a little bit more connection with the audience. Unfortunately, there was a time when Taylor had to take some time off because of a health issue. They kind of pushed pause on us, and I think that not allowing us to have that little development where we could have carried things on a little bit on our own, he took the time off, we could have still carried on and done stuff creatively without him, and then could have had a big moment when he came back. I think that was maybe the beginning, because I guess in their eyes, there the group was Taylor, which I do to an extent understand, but I think we just weren’t given the chance to develop ourselves so we can also become more of a presence in the group.”

How did you get approached for this?

“Yeah, so I think powers that be kind of knew what was coming. So my tail end of my run at NXT was a little bit of almost like yeah, do what you want. So for a little bit of time there, I kind of just had fun. I did me, and Shawn Michaels had his input. Obviously, it was mostly his idea, but he kind of let me loose a little bit, I think for the first time, because I feel like he probably didn’t even know when the call-up or when it was actually going to happen. Because when I first heard it was supposed to happen sooner. So a guy named Rob Fee, who was in creative, reached out to me and kind of gave me the heads up and was like, ‘Hey, don’t be upset if your time on NXT TV starts going down a little bit. This is what’s coming.’ So he kind of gave me the heads up about it, and I was like oh, okay. And then at that point, it was like months. It was months later that any movement happened on it. But yeah, I mean, I think it was more of a, ‘Hey, this is the idea. This is what they want to do.’ I’m just like, oh, this is crazy. Yes, let’s do this.”

When you debuted on NXT, it was a pretty controversial character. You had this character that was like talking about this is a safe space. I just feel like it ended up going out into the mainstream media too.

Yes, yes, it did. Well, that was a crazy time. So I get hired in 20/21 post-COVID group to come into the Performance Center. Almost for a year, I’m kind of just there, doing classes, meeting everybody, trying to find my way on TV. I guess in my head, I’m like, all right, well, I’m here, so now I have to figure out how I get on. So it did start, my technical first debut was we had the tournament, the NXT Breakout Tournament, and I had a match and I went out first round. That was still when it was like black and gold era, but then they kind of told us like, hey, things are changing. We’re going to be starting like a new version of NXT, and then that’s when the conversation started for the new character. It began as Shawn Michaels’ full idea. He kind of saw it the way he explained it to me was more of like a Scientology-type thing turn into a social justice warrior kind of thing, but the whole idea was always going to be that it would eventually turn into kind of a cult thing.”

I saw some comparisons to Right to Censor:

“It was always supposed to be like I have this nice smile, I’m a nice guy, but there’s just something underneath that’s not right. That was always supposed to be the idea. So the debut, I did my first promo, I did a match against Cameron Grimes, and it was well received backstage. Everyone was super happy with it, and then I think the next day it got a bunch of headlines. I think the headline might have been, ‘WWE pokes fun at the woke left.’ I saw that and was like, oh, well, that’s not what it was supposed to be. So the word is, this is when Vince McMahon was still in charge. He saw the headline and got very upset. Shawn Michaels called me and said, ‘Hey, Vince is not too happy with what happened. Unfortunately, we’re gonna have to take you off TV for a little bit, and I was like, okay.’ He’s like, ‘Don’t worry, we’re gonna figure it out.’ I was like, okay, understood.”

That’s got to be scary

“I was scared. I made my first debut. Thought it was awesome. I knocked it out of the park, and now, oh, now I’m off TV. So the idea was the next week they were gonna kind of Easter egg me in a backstage, we shot it. I was just backstage somewhere hugging somebody, I think it was. Show starts, they do like the pre-show stuff around 7:30. TV starts at eight, I think it’s maybe 6:45. I get a text to come to Shawn’s office. I go in Shawn’s office, and it’s him and one of the head writers, and they have, I believe, Bruce Prichard on the phone, and they’re just typing this promo, and I’m like, ‘What’s going on?’ And they’re like, ‘All right, so we’re gonna have you go out and cut this promo today. So it turns out Vince saw the headline and kind of freaked out, but then he actually went back and watched it and apparently loved it.’ So he was on board after he actually watched the actual promo. So they typed me out like a three-page promo, and I had to remember it in 30 minutes, and that was probably the most stressful time in my life and career ever. I just locked myself away in a corner somewhere, just kept going over it, going over it, going over it. And there was a writer at the time there named Jim Smallman who kept checking in with me, like, ‘You think you got it?’ You got it. I’m like, I think we’re gonna do this. I went out there and did it; it wasn’t word for word but Vince was happy.”